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Here are some reasons why.
I'm going to start the discussion with religion and spirituality, not because it's the primary reason we homeschool (it isn't) but because it's the reason many (most?) people assume families homeschool their children.
There are a lot of religious reasons to homeschool your children, but the most compelling one for me is that I believe that all education is inherently religious/spiritual. Meaning: Apart from very few subjects (typing perhaps?) you always rely on presuppositions, and those presuppositions are usually tied in some way to one's metaphysics and beliefs about spiritual reality. The idea of delivering some kind of "neutral" secular education is laughable. When you approach subjects like history, language, and science presupposing that the material universe is all there is, you will teach those subjects quite differently than if you presuppose that there is a spiritual realm.
In many subjects, public education is hamstrung by the anti-establishment clause on the one hand, and the inherently religious nature of education on the other. As children grow and their education develops, the material constantly calls out for value judgments. History, for example, is unintelligible if you refuse to acknowledge the religious and political motivations of its actors. How does one teach children about the crusades, the Roman Empire, the Enlightenment, or the wars of the 20th century without expressing SOME kind of moral judgment? Forget ONE, how do you enforce a set of standards for neutrality among THOUSANDS of teachers, knowing that they all come from different backgrounds and carry different spiritual biases?
Some other religious/spiritual reasons we, or other homeschoolers, might choose to keep our children out of the school system:
Also note that spiritual concerns go both ways. If you're an atheist in a district that has decided to teach Intelligent Design in its science curriculum, you might decide to keep your child home. Likewise other faiths.
Comments
Bummer
I'm surprised and more than a little disappointed. Of course, in your first paragraph you state that religion is not the primary reason you homeschool (I'm looking forward to the rest of the series) but your arguments here I found more than a little bit troubling.
The idea that it is impossible to teach even matter-of-fact subjects like mathematics, the physical sciences, or history without implicitly teaching religion strikes me as, well, something a "nutter" would say. If the bible doesn't comment on a subject, what is there really for a Christian to add? Any editorializing without biblical justification implies the commenter has received some sort of special revelation, which should strike you as heresy. You seem to want to take the mystery out of reconciling the spiritual with the physical for your children, which seems to me like just the kind of mind-control that secular people would flippantly presume is the primary motive for homeschooling.
Your arguments seem to be based in part on the simplistic and tired idea that right and wrong do not exist without a man-in-the-sky to define the dichotomy. The agnostics and atheists I work with are at least as moral as most evangelicals I know, at least so far as concerns behavior that impacts others (i.e., not considering recreational drug use or other activities defined as "wrong" only in the incredibly narrow context of the last century of American culture).
Of course there are still plenty of good reasons for homeschooling, probably the first of which is American public schools being little more than soul-crushing warehouses concerned more with their own existence than actual education. But I think you're off the mark here.
Tired ideas
Your arguments seem to be based in part on the simplistic and tired idea that right and wrong do not exist without a man-in-the-sky to define the dichotomy.
Simplistic and tired as it may be, this is pretty fundamental to most religious, and some irreligious, world-views. Transcendence is deeply embedded in a couple thousand years of western philosophy. And, for purposes of this discussion, it does not matter if you can establish some kind of common morality without God. I don't teach my children about God because my goal is for them to be moral. I teach them about God because I believe that He Is. The morality is a response, it is not the End.
Religion and Spirituality
Fun Hobby:
"the simplistic and tired idea that right and wrong do not exist without a man-in-the-sky to define the dichotomy." heh. now try and pin down mr anonymous' definition of "right and wrong." it's one thing to say one can easily define the concepts in a relativistic fashion, quite another to formulate the definitions.
I, being a math guy, can maintain that maths and science can be pretty straightforwardly taught without appeal to deeper philosophical underpinnings, at least for younger, pre-high school kids. Sooner or later, though, the motivation to study science at all -- and the hope that laws can be formulated -- will have to be revealed: and it is a largely monotheistic motivation. Sorry, atheists, but you came late to the scientific party.
I would ask you to consider this (as I teach at a nondenominational, secular private school, the atmosphere is much like public school, although not so religiously repressive): the allegedly benign *lack* or study of theological and religious concerns, and the *lack* of allowance in mentioning such things, in any context, in any course, is itself a statement on the nature of existence. The secular humanists would like to pretend that ignoring God and things sacred is a neutral stance. But it is not.
This is part of what makes schools "soul-crushing warehouses," actually.
Things not said
I would ask you to consider this (as I teach at a nondenominational, secular private school, the atmosphere is much like public school, although not so religiously repressive): the allegedly benign *lack* or study of theological and religious concerns, and the *lack* of allowance in mentioning such things, in any context, in any course, is itself a statement on the nature of existence. The secular humanists would like to pretend that ignoring God and things sacred is a neutral stance. But it is not.
This says what I was trying to say SO much better than I did. We don't want our children to grow up thinking that God is irrelevant to and uninvolved with most of reality. Christianity teaches that all truth is God's truth. I imagine that other religions teach similar principles. A public school is really Constitutionally restricted from teaching this.
And for good reason
And for very good reason, I might add (and I'm sure you would agree.)
Not Restricted
However, a public school is not Constitutionally restricted from teaching that Christians believe that all truth is God's truth. Schools can even explain the concept of maya and the tenets of Shintoism. What public schools cannot do is teach that any one of these beliefs is true, for the rather obvious reason that none of them can be proved to be true.
This series of posts and comments began because I wanted to point out that an important purpose of public education is to teach young citizens about their shared culture, to give everyone in America a common foundation in the society in which they're all joined. It's interesting that one of your purposes in homeschooling, then, Robb, is to teach your children cultural ideas they don't share with American society. Which only proves my point.
Teaching religion in school
Very good point. From 7th to 10th grade I went to a private Episcopalian school. I don't know if it was because it was Episcopalian or because it was in Oregon, but the education was fairly liberal. What I mean by that is that they did not teach Christianity in a vacuum. Every religion class (and our combined History/English class which they called Humanities) taught comparative religion. I learned about Confucius, Buddha, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, and even Paleo- and Neolithic mysticism. I think it was one of the greatest things about my entire education - being exposed to all of those different ideas and having the chance to discuss them and form my own opinions on them.
I've Heard That Too
I've heard that from people who went to Catholic schools, too, that they were taught comparative religion.
Then there's my wife, who went to Catholic school with precisely one black student and didn't meet a Jew or a Hindu until she got to college.
Private School diversity
We had 1 black kid in our class of 45, which wasn't so bad considering Oregon's racial make up back then. We had no Hispanics and the only (East) Indian I recall was a 2 grades ahead of me. No Native Americans of course. We did have a lot of Koreans and Japanese though, especially in the high school which was part boarding school. There was a Middle Eastern (I think) kid in my class, but he was very fair skinned and a great point guard, so his ethnicity was only apparent to me in hindsight.
In 11th grade we moved to the Virgin Islands where I went to a private non-denominational school (you want to see bad public schools, go to the VI). There we were about 50% white, 30-40% West Indian, and the rest a mix of East Indian, Asian and other.
Diversity: It's Race-based
Is, um. Is any one else here often amused when discussions of "diversity" extend only as far as a person's race? Or, in a pinch, religion?
Any one?
Bueller?
For the record, I find more diversity (when I choose to look for it) in an average, uni-racial crowd than most political activists can find in an entire country.
There is a particularly noxious series of radio ads being run right now by the Housing and Urban Development folks, "celebrating" the Fair Housing Act. These ads are in a set of ads that *have* to be run by the radio station as PSAs, and they are -- again, comically -- so raced-based in their view of diversity that I would cry aloud, were I to believe that the average American was was actually nodding their head along with the commercial in affirmation.
http://www.aricherlife.org/docs/NFHA_ParallelLives_60_NO_SF.mp3
Diversity
Personally I don't think of race as being necessarily diverse. It's more about country of origin, language, culture, and so forth. An Indian who grows up in my town is pretty much the same as my kid. Blacks and whites in America are, as far as I can see, pretty much the same culturally (although there's the mystery of Tyler Perry). I mean, take a white guy from Brooklyn and a black guy from Brooklyn, drop them in Outer Mongolia, and see how different they seem then.
I don't know where you're from Wry, but from what I understand most of America is actually fairly homogeneous. Mostly whites, some blacks, an increasing number of Latinos. Around here, though, wow, it's insanely diverse. Not due strictly to race, but because we've got immigrants from friggin' everywhere. My daughter's going on a field trip this afternoon to a Turkish bookstore! Most Americans probably don't even know Turkey is a country. A couple of years ago my son went to a birthday party for his Coptic friend. Even I didn't know what a Copt was.
That, my friend, is diversity.
Racial Diversity
The default view of diversity being mostly racial (and gender based in a lot of realms) is probably due to two factors: race is easy to see and Federal Civil Rights and other anti-discrimination law started out mostly dealing with race.
That said, I basically agree with crywalt. My earlier post about the racial diversity at my schools didn't account for religion or socio-economic background because, for the most part, the student's families were upper middle class Christians. The second school I attended had more cultural diversity - born and raised in the islands or elsewhere.
Crywalt is right about the homogeneousness of different races born or raised in the states. My wife is a Twinkie - yellow on the outside and white on the inside. She is Chinese, born in the Philippines, but raised in the States since she was 6. She has no accent, and in almost every way she is identical to me culturally. She may be somewhat anomalous though - at her cousin's kid's birthday last weekend she remarked, "Why don't my cousin's have as many white friends as I do?" My wife's friends split about 50/50 (asian/non-asian), but I think there were only two non-asians at the party.
At the same time, our area of LA is mostly Armenian and Korean, as the business' signs attest, and I am as likely to hear another language as English a when I'm out in public (and it's not always Spanish). I think most of these people are 1st generation, and their communities are still fairly insular. In thirty years though, I expect that to change as their children grow up.
American Exceptionalism
One of the things that makes America exceptional -- both historically and in the world today -- is that ethnic groups become American. I have a friend here who you'd think is Indian. He certainly looks Indian, has an Indian accent (it's almost comically Indian, really). Indian wife, kids growing up American, pretty much. Great guy, great family.
But he's from Afghanistan. He was born there, grew up there.
Talking to him about his growing up, and reading about it later, I found that Afghanistan had a whole minority of what are called ethnic Indians: Hindu people from India who emigrated to Afghanistan but never assimilated. They were sort of the Jews of Afghanistan -- they did the accounting and moneylending for the Muslim majority. When the Taliban took over most of the Hindus fled. My friend's family lives in India again.
It turns out there are pockets of people like this all over the world. Ethnic Chinese in the Philippines. Ethnic Copts in Egypt. Italians in Croatia. And so on.
But in America, while plenty of people hang on to some kind of ethnicity -- Puerto Ricans with flags over the hoods of their cars, Italians with the little reflectorized Italian flag -- mostly everyone becomes an American.
And that's pretty fantastic.
Speaking of Diversity
My daughter did have a problem with one class project. Everyone was assigned what the teacher called an "ethnicity" project. Students were supposed to make a poster about their ethnicity. Food, flag, whatever. My daughter and I talked about it and decided her ethnicity was, really, American. My mother's family is Italian with her grandparents having been born in Piedmont and Naples. My father's family is part Italian and part Polish, with maybe some German thrown in; his grandparents were from one Old Country or another but his father's father's father emigrated from some indeterminate spot where Germany and Poland were moving borders in the late 19th century, and he married a nice girl from Białystok. ("Bialystock and Bloo-oom!") My wife's mother is half Italian and half Sicilian and her father is a mess, part Pennsylvania Dutch, part French, part Irish. All over the map.
As a result my kids are mostly Italian, I guess -- and the extent of their heritage is their father can curse in Italian. I got that from my mother. Beyond that, they're American. From New Jersey. (And how it pains me to know I did that to them.) None of their relatives are purely from any particular place, they all came over on boats generations ago, no one speaks anything besides English. The last vestiges of any ethnic heritage -- great-grandparents who actually listened to opera and understood Italian -- died out before my kids were born. There's nothing left but America.
Which is fine. All those relatives all those years ago fought to get here just so that could happen. They succeeded!
Okay, so my daughter and I talked all this out and concluded, yes, her ethnicity is indeed American. The fact that Dad yells "Va' fa Napoli!" every so often doesn't change that. So she did her poster on America.
Her teacher refused to give her credit for it. She said that "American" isn't an ethnicity. It's just where we live now. The teacher insisted that my daughter must have some other ethnicity. But it's not like my daughter and I didn't discuss it and consider it -- we thought about it. Put effort into it. And my daughter is not one to back down when she's thought about it. She wouldn't back down. So she came home crying because she was getting a zero on the project.
My wife had to go in and argue with the teacher. Eventually the two of them ended up in a meeting with the department head, who took the teacher's side. The two of them kept arguing that "American" is not an ethnicity. My wife had to make them pull out the dictionary and look it up.
Eventually she demanded that the teacher simply grade it according to the rubric, which she did, grudgingly. My daughter lost 25 points for choosing the wrong ethnicity but got 75 percent on everything else. She was still upset because she wants straight As.
Poor kid, she's got the Italian temper and the Polish stubbornness like her father.
RE Poor kid,
You should've home schooled her. That's what you get for relying on the guvmint.
We Thought About It
Homeschooling was a consideration. My thinking: My kids are very smart. Not geniuses (not literally) but close. And public school isn't going to challenge them very much intellectually. It will, however, challenge them in a bad way: By boring them. Certainly they will learn much more, more quickly, and with better staying power if they direct their own studies. The only things I've ever truly learned I taught myself.
The other consideration: Much of what kids learn in school is negative: How to fit in, conform, give in to peer pressure. How to bully and be bullied. Social cliques and pecking orders. Who thought it was a good idea to throw a few hundred 12-year-olds in a box, bore them to tears, then see what happens?
However, we weren't prepared to make a decision that big on behalf of our children. It's a big step, opting to remove them from society and its expectations. Any given human society has flaws and problems, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore them: You have to be part of society. It's what being human is about. Unless you're the evil parent in a V.C. Andrews novel, your children have to engage with the world on some level.
Also, as I previously noted, I tend to lose focus easily. Or, more accurately, hyperfocus on the wrong things. Like posting comments on a blog instead of making lunch for the kids. And if I went to work and my wife stayed home, well, we'd make the evening news within a week.
So we decided to send the kids to school but we did a lot of homework. We visited something like eleven pre-schools before deciding on the best one we could afford. We toured most of the state looking for a house we could afford in the town with the best schools. (It turned out we were already in the best house in the best town we could afford.) When a new charter school was opening in the area, we jumped right in. We're active in the PTA and all the teachers and administrators know our names. Not always in the best way.
My son decided he wanted to be in regular public school, not the charter school, with his friends. So he switched last year. The result: Failing grades, fights at lunch, discipline problems in class. But you know what? It's mostly because William is William and he doesn't fit the round hole of public school, and one of the ways in which he doesn't fit is he doesn't seem to care all that much. He's not getting ground down the way I feared he might. He's standing up. When his teacher accuses William of disrespect, I can be sure it's because the teacher earned it.
My daughter is having her own set of problems. The charter school isn't really much more challenging than the local school would be and the current batch of teachers is pretty weak. But it's almost over.
My kids are so darned smart, though, honestly, what school they go to, or even if they stay home, it probably doesn't matter much. They'll be fine whatever happens. They'll manage.
This is one thing I feel I've learned since I've been a parent. I started out thinking I had a lot of control and a lot of responsibility. I've since learned -- I sincerely feel this -- that short of physical trauma (either preventing it or causing it), parenting has little to no effect on children. They are who they are. Lucky for me, my kids are okay. They're probably going to be assholes like their father, but they're okay.
Shared culture
It's interesting that one of your purposes in homeschooling, then, Robb, is to teach your children cultural ideas they don't share with American society. Which only proves my point.
Yep, that's fair. And it's certainly true - I will probably go into more depth in my "Politics" post. I have no interest in my children receiving indoctrination in American civic religion, which is definitely a purpose of public education.
That said, I should not that many evangelical homeschoolers believe they will do a better job of teaching authentic American civic religion than most public schools. There are plenty of flag-waving, constitution-loving, founder-spouting Christian homeschoolers. Again, I'll hit this topic later.
American Civic Religion
I'm not even sure what "American civic religion" means, exactly, but it's not quite what I was talking about. It's not so much that public school is making sure everyone has the same particular foundation, but that everyone has some foundation in common. What that foundation precisely consists of isn't as important as the fact that everyone's is basically the same. I mean, people will argue, I'm certain, that the foundation is important -- and others might argue it isn't, and that's one of the things that makes America great -- but those are sort of only part of it; when talking about public school and its purpose, I think the main thing is that it simply gives all our citizens a shared background, whatever that background might be. The main thing is that that background is not what you think it should be, or what I think it should be, but what society agrees it should be, more or less -- even though that will shift and change from time to time as individuals within society argue with each other.
I guess it's something of a dialectic kind of thing. Uh oh, the water just got very deep...and still.
Re: American Civic Religion
Sorry, I should have typed civil religion.
At any rate, abstractions like "society" have no claim on my children, so I feel no inclination to surrender them.
Abstractions like "society"
Society's not an abstraction. It's what makes human life possible. Of course it has a claim on your children. They won't survive without it.
Re: Abstractions like "society"
Actually, it is an abstraction. (Note that the article specifically identifies "society" as a commonly reified abstraction.)
Also, I think you're equivocating definitions of society. There's a big different between that specifically American civil religion that we're discussing and the broader concept of learning to function successfully in various social structures.
North Abstraction
The word "society" denotes an abstract concept. However, it is also very real.
And unless you're planning on moving away from the continental landmass commonly called North America sometime soon, your children are going to have to deal in some way with American society.
Christianity teaches that all truth is God's truth
"Christianity teaches that all truth is God's truth" what does that even mean? and how would it be different from any other God-based religion's teachings?
I'm thinking there is a better way to put this thought.
RE God's Truth
Well, that's the rub, isn't it? All religions claim to have the one and only answer. A lot of people must be going to hell. Religious people try to get around the mutually contradictory nature of religions by saying, "Well we're worshiping the same God in different ways" or "We basically believe the same things, we just have different names for it." But that's not really true. There are fundamentally differences between even the Big Three monotheistic religions that make them quite incompatible (to say nothing of the polytheistic or non-theistic religions).
Re: "All Truth is God's Truth"
and yet -- the idea remains sitting there in a weird, tautological tangle. Oh well.
"Religious people try to get around the mutually contradictory nature of religions by saying..." let us hasten to modify that as "Some religious people..."
Many more religious people are quite content to acknowledge that all religions do *not* "point" in the same theistic direction. Beyond a pretty basic Moral Law, concepts of "the Godhead" range from not there (Buddhism) to pantheism (Hindu) and that's just among what I call the Big 4-plus-1 (Hindu, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam. Yes; the "plus 1" -- a religion so minor it is almost comically outsized in its ability to influence human affairs -- is Judaism).
I think this is a "stub" of a tangent, as the Wiki-folk say.
"Wiki-folk." Heh.
RE "God's Truth"
How naive you are, sir! They run everything. [/racist paranoid delusions]
Well, that was implied, but I thought it was pretty obvious too. :/
Proving my point - religion is irrational for a lot of reasons, but this irrationality (i.e. mutual contradiction) is proven by simple logic, without having to resort to the scientific proof of "god(s)" debate.
I guess I'm missing your point. What are you saying with this post?
Stub, I tell ya.
Dammit khab, I called "stub" on this already. we never got beyond your half-formed (quasimodal) odd self-referential statement.
We can kick around the huge leaps of conclusions you are making in some other thread -- it is certainly a consolation to imagine people who have different worldviews from ourselves as thoroughly "irrational" relative to our own beliefs, and to suppose that mutual contradiction invalidates all points of view equally. But I learned a long time ago (about 15-20 years) that I am most effective as a teacher, and also learn quite a bit, if, whenever one of my pupils does something startlingly incorrect, I don't immediately wade in with "well that's wrong; you are obviously irrational; try again."
No; it's much better to lead with, "and what were you thinking that led you to that particular path?"
"STUB" I say!
Irrationality of religion
I don't think that people who have different world views than mine are irrational. For example, I think libertarians and conservatives are rational. People who are against federal regulation of net neutrality or climate change are rational. Even people against abortion come to their stance largely from a rational thought process. (Of course, in all these groups, and in groups which hold world views more in line with my own, you will find people who reach their conclusions via an irrational process - that's just the law of large numbers.)
However, the very idea of the "supernatural," inherent is just about all religious philosophies is irrational. (I'm using the "not in accordance with reason" definition here). Are you saying that belief in miracles, virgin birth (which is not unique to Christianity), omnipotent g/God(s), etc. is rational? In what sense?
For what it's worth, I did not reach my conclusions about religion in a vacuum. My father was an Episcopalian priest and I was raised in the Church. As noted elsewhere, I was exposed to and studied (though not that deeply) other, non-Christian religions. I recognize that religion has lead to a great deal of good in the world, and provides a solid foundation for some people seeking guidance in their life. However, and a risk of sounding snarky, I don't need a god to tell me what is right or wrong, or how to lead my life. Through self-reflection and intimate interaction with my fellow man I am able to reach what I think are the right conclusions on how to be. And the key here is that I am reaching my conclusions using reason. Believing that I should do "A" or not do "B" because a man heard a voice coming from a bush that was on fire but not being burnt ~3000 years ago is a fundamentally different way to decide how to lead my life.
I should probably also say that I am more disdainful of Churches than I am religion. While religion (i.e. belief in the supernatural) is inherently irrational, that doesn't necessarily make it bad. The core beliefs of most religions are more or less good. However, the Churches of man have perverted those a great deal, the Roman Catholic Church only being the most obvious and most evil (on an institutional level).
Reason / Empiricism
Are you saying that belief in miracles, virgin birth (which is not unique to Christianity), omnipotent g/God(s), etc. is rational? In what sense?
It depends on which definition of "rational" you're using. If you're using "rational" as a functional equivalent of "empirical" then no. If, on the other hand, you mean, "in accord with reason," then yes. The whole discipline of Christian apologetics is based on the idea that Christian faith is reasonable. There are, of course, Christian mystics and existentialists who believe that faith is inherently irrational, but they are absolutely the minority report, historically speaking. Thomas Aquinas certainly devoted a good chunk of his life to defending the rationality of Christianity.
But that gets us down a serious rat-hole very quickly. We're going to have all sorts of metaphysical and epistemological differences that lead us to different conclusions about this. But to say that belief in the supernatural is inherently irrational is to subscribe to a very narrow, modernist definition of rationality.
RE Reason / Empiricism
Eh..... Rat-hole indeed.
If you are allowed to select any set of axioms then use sound logic to reach a conclusion, and call the entire process "reasonable," then it is "reasonable" to believe all sorts of unreasonable things. Perhaps our language (or my ability to write/communicate) is not sufficient.
Empiricism is an important facet of the discussion, but it doesn't get us very far. Agnostic: "There is no scientific evidence of the existence of God." Theist: "So? I have faith."
To me, the more important and interesting discussion or idea is that by allowing for the belief (solely on faith) in a God, miracles, etc. you open the door for basically everything. You now have license to do anything, because that is the Will of God. It can be as horrible as genocide or as benign as refusing medical care (for yourself - refusing life saving medical care for your children on religious - or any other - grounds is basically child abuse). The fact that historically the "Will of God" has been so perverted by Man only makes this that much worse.
The secular humanist who, for example, believes in capital punishment or justifiable homicide (e.g. self defense), is required to come up with a rational/empirical/reasonable justification for this position. The theist is able to say, "Capital punishment is OK because God says it is OK." Some theists (Aquinas?) may not take that easy way out, but I think most do. Of course, the SH could say, "It's OK because I think it's OK" or some other such lazy argument, but then we would rightly dismiss his position as indefensible/irrational/etc.
Re: Reason / Empiricism
Agnostic: "There is no scientific evidence of the existence of God." Theist: "So? I have faith."
This is a complete straw man. No Christian apologist worth their salt would ever respond in that way, or even in a way that could be reduced to that. Whether you're talking about a "popular apologist" like Alister McGrath or Ravi Zacharias or a more academic defender, you're not going to be in a discussion that is "allowed to select any set of axioms" to approach truth.
I will say again, reason is not equal to rationalism or empiricism. Both are epistemological commitments that are far from unassailable. Classical Christian apologetics starts with a very narrow set of axioms that can be agreed upon by all parties (usually: the law of non-contradiction, the law of causality, and the basic reliability of sense perception) and works from there. Presuppositional apologetics, which is a historically recent phenomenon, may sometimes sound like it's begging the question, but deeper investigation reveals that this appearance derives from a more coherentist epistemology.
I really don't want to get stuck in the weeds here, but virtually everything you say in your comment is a mischaracterization of what historical Christian philosophy and apologetics assert. We can't have an, ahem, reasonable discussion if you're going to mischaracterize the position of those you're criticizing.
lazy atheism/theism
I abhor either, and salute atheists (such as, I assume, your "self") that have examined their worlds thoroughly, and come to what for them is a reasonable conclusion, based on what is revealed to them. The branch of theism I adhere to worships that God which admires the use of reason, principally because (a) reason is a positive characteristic of that God, and (b) it is one of his gifts to Mankind.
The lazy I do not hate, nor dislike. Pity is probably the best word. And in my circle I find many more lazy atheists, who disbelieve in God for convenience' sake, or theists who have some fuzzy, indistinct idea of the God they believe in -- and then ignore as if He were not.
I have said often, and in other places, that I know some atheists who have a better shot at a place in God's heaven than many alleged "believers." I believe this (maybe erroneously), based on my wry understanding of His statement, "either be hot or cold," with the follow-up that He finds lukewarm nauseating.
Funny: Burning Straw Man
"Believing that I should do "A" or not do "B" because a man heard a voice coming from a bush that was on fire but not being burnt ~3000 years ago is a fundamentally different way to decide how to lead my life."
Heh. Which religion bases its morality (do A and not B) on that?
Episcopalian: True Story
In college I sketched out a story about heaven (I wrote what I think is a better one last year), wherein people of all faiths (including atheism) were present before the throne of God in His heaven and it turned out: the Episcopalians were right all along.
This Is Hell
Rowan Atkinson does a brilliant version of this. Not Heaven, of course, but Hell.
Jesuits
It's extremely difficult to argue against religion without a lot of background and practice. All the easy arguments -- the ones most atheists like to trot out -- can be dismissed pretty handily by anyone with a little training. Those Jesuits have been at this a long, long time, and they're really, really good at it.
Re: Bummer
I was somewhat concerned that I wouldn't be able to convey exactly why I say "education is inherently religious" in such a short piece, and perhaps my concerns were warranted.
Let me start by saying that I initially listed "mathematics" instead of "typing" as my example of a subject that it not noticeably impacted by religious presuppositions. I changed it mostly to be "cute" but also because I could imagine some esoteric mathematical concepts (e.g. Godel's theorem) freaking out certain religious people. In hindsight, I probably should have left it.
Physical sciences are a mixed bag, but I mostly agree. Physics (at least through early college) is pretty much applied mathematics, so it's pretty tough to find a religious taint. Ditto chemistry, I suppose. You're definitely going to start running crossways with certain religious assumptions when you get into certain aspects of geology, particularly dating the earth. I personally have no quarrel with this, but you have to concede that anybody who has a worldview that includes "young earth" creationism is going to get sideways with any science that runs contrary to their beliefs. You can't be a geology teach and be "neutral" about this - if you hold to the overwhelming scientific consensus, you're going to be telling the YECs that they're wrong.
Let me pause and say, also, that since I am quite unfamiliar with the intimate details of non-Western belief systems, I'm going to assume that there are at least a few metaphysical presuppositions that are not entirely compatible with Western physical sciences.
Where I will vigorously defend my position, however, is the subject of history or anything else in the "Social Sciences" - not only are these "soft sciences" that elude empirical verification, but anything having to do with human beings and behavior pretty much requires you to take a worldview position when educating. Your interpretation of historical events will be profoundly influenced by your presuppositions - those with a strong belief in Providence, for example, will look at history from a remarkably different perspective from those with deeply held materialistic beliefs. And even if one TRIES to teach history from a "neutral to all parties" perspective, that act itself is communicating and/or reinforcing a presupposition: That all interpretations are equally valid. But that's just unrealistic. The major events of history cry out for moral judgments. Can you teach about the Rwandan genocide and side-step judgments about the historical consequences of imperialism? Can the person who views the bombing of Hiroshima as justified and the person who believes it was a crime against humanity really be told that they're both right? And how do you dodge making a value judgment on so many historical events that were driven by religious ideology, whether you're talking about Mao's Cultural Revolution or the Crusades.
If the bible doesn't comment on a subject, what is there really for a Christian to add?
Two points: First, the Bible isn't the only "authority" out there. A Christian will approach truth differently from a Muslim, who will likewise approach truth differently from a Hindu or Atheist. Even within Christianity, you're going to get significantly different perspectives from Catholics, Baptists, Mainliners, Reconstructionists, etc.
Second, when the Bible DOES comment on a subject (e.g. metaphysics) that runs contrary to other worldviews, it will affect a Christian's interpretation of information.
More later...
Teaching History.
First off, thanks for starting this series. I have a ton of questions and points, but I probably won't get time to ask/address them until later this week. I did want to respond to this, though:
I don't think a teacher should necessarily determine a moral answer to questions like these, either in a public, private or home school. These topics beg for a discussion of the morals, not a decision. I think a teacher, much like a journalist, can present the facts regarding a historical event, and some (hopefully all or most) of the various theories surrounding it, and provoke a discussion amongst the students that will help them reach their own conclusions about "the squishy stuff" (i.e. the non-concrete facts, etc.) I think teachers in any school who present only one view of a non-scientific topic are doing their students a disservice.
Re: Teaching history
Something that troubles me about both Robb and K's comments here is the apparent idea -- maybe I'm missing something -- that the secular nature of public schooling somehow means that public school teachers can't/don't/shouldn't say that genocide is wrong. I say piffle.
I think Robb's right: Education instills values. Public education, I think, instills public values -- which is why we have bloody curricula battles, and why some people like Robb ditch it, if they find the disparity between their own and society's values too wide -- and I think it's fair to say that we, collectively, can say that the Rwandan genocide was wrong. The Holocaust was wrong. We can't/don't/shouldn't aspire to faux objectivity in the face of monstrosity.
RE public education values
I'm not saying that we have to present both sides of every issue. The broad moral judgments on subjects like the Nazi or Rwandan Holocausts are not very debatable. The moral debate of the justification of the Hiroshima bombing is a lot closer to the gray though, and I'm sure if we thought for a while we could come up with a lot of other examples where the debate on the morals an issue is not clear cut at all.
Take two of the current polarizing issues: Abortion and Gay Marriage. I don't think we want public (or private for that matter) school teachers saying one side is right or wrong. Instead they should present the facts of the issue, such as they are, and act as facilitator of the discussion.
Another thing that struck me in thinking about this was, "How much of this is relevant to elementary education?" I can see some of it applying to high school level classes, but it's not clear to me how this applies to teaching K-5. Are the morals we teach at that age very different between conservative Christians, other faiths, and atheists? I don't think so. It's basically, share, don't hit, say "please" and "thank you", etc.
Re: Public Education Values
Take two of the current polarizing issues: Abortion and Gay Marriage. I don't think we want public (or private for that matter) school teachers saying one side is right or wrong. Instead they should present the facts of the issue, such as they are, and act as facilitator of the discussion.
Much better examples than mine. But I disagree with your conclusions. First of all, I think it's naive to think that "the facts" on issues like this can be presented neutrally, as if every teacher were the ideal objective journalist. The facts will always be tainted with the biases of the presenter. This is true when instructing adults, and all the more true when teaching children. Second, younger children are not generally considered to be capable of complex reasoning, even in a facilitated discussion. They are fact-absorbing sponges, and their minds are equipped for that. So primary school children learn languages, arithmetic, and lots and lots of historical facts. And, as I've been trying to argue, these facts are not neutral.
"How much of this is relevant to elementary education?" I can see some of it applying to high school level classes, but it's not clear to me how this applies to teaching K-5. Are the morals we teach at that age very different between conservative Christians, other faiths, and atheists? I don't think so. It's basically, share, don't hit, say "please" and "thank you", etc.
No, it's so much more than that. Many classical education curricula go through the entire history of western civilization two or three times, so most children being educated in this system would have likely made it all the way through this by the end of grade 5 or 6. Some of the founders of this country were translating Latin and Greek by the time they were 8 years old. And, on the religious side, most church catechisms were originally written to be taught to children this age. When I taught a "young communicants" class last summer at my church, most of my students were 9-11 years old.
Presenting Facts
Well, sure, nobody's perfect. But I think there is a big difference between, say, Rick Warren (or Jared Diamond*) teaching Social Studies versus, for example, Walter Cronkite. Obviously teachers should strive to be more like the latter, and if they do so well enough, there wouldn't be as much of a perceived need for a parent to pull their kid from that school. I think you're being a bit too cynical (which means a lot coming from me ;) to say that you can't teach anything (even arithmetic!) without imparting your biases.
*I struggled a bit to find a foil for Warren. Another choice I considered was the evolutionist Dawkins, but I didn't want to cast it in a Evolution-ID light - I'm unsure of Warren's position on that. Also, I think Dawkins is more of a true scientist than Diamond (rabid atheism notwithstanding); Diamond's books and writing contain a lot of unproven ideas and philosophies (see especially "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race").
I, like crywalt, have to ask, what schools are you looking at? I think the extent of my history education through 6th grade consisted of the Pilgrims and Thanksgiving, George Washington and the cherry tree, and Johnny Appleseed, whose biopic we seemed to watch every. single. year. I don't remember learning anything about Greece, Rome, or Europe until high school. Though, it was a long time ago and I have a terrible memory, so I suppose I could be wrong. It will be interesting to see what my kids will study when they go to (public) school. I should also ask my sister what she covers in her 4th grade class (in a private, non-denominational school).
This style of education you describe was, I think, much more common 100 years ago. I recently read a biography of Norbert Wiener in which they described his home schooling at the hands of his professor (of language) father. It consisted in large part of the rote memorization of classical literature in many different languages (Latin, Greek, German, French, etc.) But I'm not aware of instruction like that (i.e the study of classics, not rote memorization) being widespread today.
Seventh Grade
My son's in seventh grade. Up to now he's learned about the American Revolution and I think he's as far as the Mexican-American War. They watched "The Alamo" (not John Wayne but Billy Bob Thornton) in class. This led to our watching "R. Lee Ermey's Lock N' Load" together to learn about field artillery. Public education at its finest!
I'm pretty sure in past years they covered the European discovery of the Americas. I don't think they've learned anything about ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt, and certainly nothing about China or Japan. Right now America's children know more about infantry weaponry (thanks to games like Modern Warfare 2) than they do about Western civilization.
Learning about Western civilization -- classical education -- was both more common and less common a hundred years ago. A hundred years ago many fewer people were educated. The universal public school system we're decrying is a relatively recent invention. Plenty of people didn't finish high school in 1910 -- some quick research turns up numbers like 10 to 15 percent of the population had a high school diploma back then. These days we're closer to 80 percent, although that number sounds suspiciously low to me -- I don't know anyone who doesn't have at least a GED.
During one of our recent sessions my psychiatrist was lamenting the poor education of today's youth. He wanted to know why young people don't know about all the things he was taught when he was in school back in the 1950s and '60s. I pointed out to him that that broad-based education existed for just a short amount of time and he was simply lucky. Before and after that, most people were and are ignorant of most of Western civilization.
The Joel Rule
Okay, I think I violated the Joel rule here - "too much noise in the signal." Bringing up Rwanda and the Holocaust as examples was a mistake. Hiroshima is better, because I know even the writers at this blog don't agree about that. Ditto the American Civil War and other wars that the United States has been involved in. I retract using an example that pretty much everyone agrees about.
Disagreement
I disagree with so many points here it's hard for me even to consider them all.
First: "Education is inherently religious" is just plain wrong. This is the same position taken by proponents of Intelligent Design, that belief in the theory of evolution is just another religious belief, as much religion as belief in Jesus or Ahura Mazda. It isn't.
Further, the fact that religions and religious beliefs are intimately involved in history doesn't mean these things cannot be taught without religion. Of course all human beings, teachers included, are biased. That's one of the things you learn in school.
Second: "Younger children are not generally considered to be capable of complex reasoning. They are fact-absorbing sponges." You may be able to find scientific studies showing this. I'd personally like to read about them. Because in my experience -- and from what I've read -- children's minds aren't spongelike at all. That's an old idea, the whole tabula rasa, "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man" junk. As far as I've read, that's been pretty thoroughly disproved. Chomsky -- him again! -- has intuited that the human brain might have certain dedicated structures, certain invariant modules, which determine the way infants learn language. Because they learn it very quickly and effectively. Beyond learning to speak, however, I don't think children are sponges at all. Assuming young children learn any facts at all -- and knowing the kids I've known I'm not sure they learn anything -- they can be easily unlearned at a later time.
Consider Paul on the road to Damascus. I guess he managed to wring out his spongelike brain somewhere along the line.
Third: "Many classical education curricula go through the entire history of western civilization two or three times..." Holy crap, what schools are you looking at? Personally I went to the top high school in the country and never made it as far as Vietnam, let alone the entire history of Western civilization. The only reason we covered World War II was our teacher had, as a child, fled France ahead of the Nazis. My public-school-based knowledge of history is as spotty as...something really spotty. Have you watched "Jaywalking" recently? Kids aren't learning anything about history in school!
Which, okay, is a problem. But it's hard to argue that our public schools do a poor job educating our children while at the same time arguing that they're warping our children by teaching them the wrong stuff. Either they get the stuff in there or they don't. As near as I can tell, public schools don't get anything in. Kids are arriving at college unable to even explain (let alone actually calculate) how the tax is computed on a paycheck and you're worried their spongelike brains are latching on to inappropriate value judgments from third grade history classes? Do you realize how crazy you sound?
Re: Western Civilization
"Many classical education curricula go through the entire history of western civilization two or three times..." Holy crap, what schools are you looking at?
For our "first pass" through Western Civilization, we used Susan Wise Bauer's "The Story of the World" series. Our oldest is 12 and we're almost through. Then we plan to use the Veritas Press "Omnibus" series for the second round. (Omnibus is an integrated history/literature/theology curriculum.)
I'm not sure if Monkey Brad is reading this thread, but as a former headmaster of a Christian Classical School, he can weigh in on how many "rounds" his (and perhaps other) classical schools take their kids through history.
I'll also note that, when I went to public school (I graduated in 1987) we didn't make it all the way through western civilization twice, but we got all the way through once, and hit at least U. S. History twice.
Home curricula
Actually, this was one of the technical questions I wanted to ask.
How do you decide on lesson plans? Is there pre-made home school curricula out there to use, or do you have to come up with it yourself? And do you have to meet any government standards (e.g. cover fractions before they are 12, read at least 5 books off this list of 100 before 16, etc.)? Will your kids be required to pass any standardized tests, or sit for a GED?
In NJ
In New Jersey, you don't even have to notify anyone you're homeschooling. No tests, no required curriculum, nothing. Just stop sending your kids in and poof! They're homeschooled!
But who would stop sending their kids in? It's FREE DAY CARE! Or, more accurately, day care you're paying for anyway through property taxes.
Re: Home curricula
Is there pre-made home school curricula out there to use, or do you have to come up with it yourself?
Yes, there are many, many home school curricula available. Just google "homeschool curriculum" and you'll see what I mean. An embarrassment of riches, actually. One of our most difficult early decisions was trying to filter down and decide which ones to use. Some are modified public/private school curricula, while others are designed specifically for homeschooling. Beyond the specific curricula, there are also several different methodologies employed by homeschoolers that tend to filter which curricula they consider.
Speaking of embarrassment of riches: Arizona, being a homeschool-friendly state, has a wealth of other resources for homeschool families: Co-ops, athletic/arts clubs, conferences, networking groups, hybrid schools, etc. We've availed ourselves of many of these over the years, and we know other families that drink deeply from the resource trough.
And do you have to meet any government standards?
Every state varies. Here in Arizona, the only requirement is that you fill out a simple form before your child is six stating that you intend to keep them out of school, so that they don't get busted by truant officers. We have access to other resources, but are not required to avail ourselves of them. For example, we are entitled to take our kids to the public school that they would have attended and get them tested to confirm that they're "keeping up."
Will your kids be required to pass any standardized tests, or sit for a GED?
No, but it can make things a bit easier, depending on which colleges they apply for.
How do you decide on lesson plans?
We're very eclectic. I mentioned the Wise-Bauer stuff we used for our first round of history. We tried a few different math curricula and finally settled on a computer-based curriculum called Teaching Textbooks, which both of our daughters love. We've participated in a few different co-op situations over the years, as well, where a group of homeschool families meet once or twice per week and each parent takes responsibility for a subject. Right now we're part of a group of four families that are all paying a friend (with a PhD in Philosophy with a language focus) to teach the kids Latin.
Latin
Cogito ergo homeschooled.
Is there pre-made home school curricula out there to use
"Is there pre-made home school curricula out there to use..."
I think, Robbl, this pretty much proves that this series is worthwhile. How can the Monkeys be this ignorant of the home-schooling universe? (I speak using "ignorant" in the classic, neutral sense) If this audience doesn't know very much, then it's worth getting the word out here as well.
Home school, as with any form of education, can be done well or poorly. And my SIL is on the front line, as well as a teacher friend of mine (public HS English) in the Bakersfield area.
Keep up the good work -- you get a gold star!
Ignorant assumptions
"How can the Monkeys be this ignorant of the home-schooling universe? "
Sometimes you get the best answers when you ask questions you already know the answers to. ;)
Chomsky -- him again! -- has intuited
Chomsky -- him again! -- has intuited...
"intuited." Now there's good science.
As for "You may be able to find scientific studies showing this." the missus -- yes, that forensic psychologist I married -- would tell you kids are not adults, largely due to the fact that their frontal lobes aren't "online" (my word, not hers). So. You can't treat 'em like adults, very successfully, much as we would like to some times.
In that regard, the whole get-your-kid-a-smartphone-at-12-years-old thing is, I predict, not going to work out very well.
Not Adults
Children are not adults. True. Their nervous systems are still developing. Their brains do work differently than adults' brains.
That does not, however, make them into sponges for facts.
As far as Chomsky intuiting -- maybe that was the wrong word. Again, I'm no expert, but my understanding of it is Chomsky proposed that such structures might exist based on what he knows of linguistics. But he left it to others to determine if he's on the right track. His proposal of such structure was in opposition to the behaviorist theory of language, which holds that language is learned entirely through stimulus response. It's a fascinating but very complex field.