... I've seen that a few times, Gattaca once, Serenity (which I don't like, all the way, b/c of Whedon's fatal inability to take care of his characters!!) I own. Need to see the Aranofsky film, never got around to that.
Gattaca was, well. Okay. I didn't grok it entirely, but it played for me like a nifty pulp novella by Heinlein.
Primer and Moon are on my list of low-budget sci-fi films to watch , along with the Robin Williams vehicle The Final Cut.
Best Dark City homage ever? Glad you asked. It's in Team America: World Police. ;o/
I bought Dark City because it was so hyped as a cult film, and I was kind of disappointed. I enjoyed eXistenZ, from the B-List, much more. Both are speculative philosophical sci-fi in the same general territory as The Matrix, but neither were near as compelling. But of the two, Cronenberg's is superior, partly because the actors are much better. Jennifer Jason Leigh has a redeeming effect on marginal films that almost merits her addition to Roger Ebert's famed "Stanton-Walsh Rule."
Serenity (which I don't like, all the way, b/c of Whedon's fatal inability to take care of his characters!!)
Explain please. If you're talking about a certain character getting killed near the end, I remember reading that was actually at the actor's insistence, not Whedon's.
If you're talking about a certain character getting killed near the end, I remember reading that was actually at the actor's insistence, not Whedon's.
If that's the case, its actually a more damning indictment of Whedon's ability as a director/auteur (which I rank much higher than most - close to the Coen Brothers'). If you cede control of the story to the actors (or other cast/crew), then you are treading in dangerous territory.
As much as I love the characters in Serenity/Firefly, I'm not sure I get this conversation.
Seems to me that in a good screenplay of any given genre, a well-developed story and well-developed characters serve each other -- that is, the story derives from how the characters would act in a given situation. If they're long-established characters and they suddenly act against type in order to further the story in some complicated way and then they revert to type after the story has been altered, that's bad.
I'm going somewhere here, I promise.
The reverse is also true: If the story goes someplace interesting and the characters don't evolve or change in a natural fashion to reflect how that journey might've changed them: Also bad. You can see this in a thousand bad sitcoms/dramas where something life-changing happens one week and the next week everybody's carrying forth as though nothing happened.
Lots of stories put their characters in mortal danger time and again, and yet everybody comes through unscathed because ... well, not really because it serves the story all that well, but because the character is popular. Or the actor who plays the character has some sort of leverage.
I've read somewhere that Han Solo was supposed to die at the end of Return of the Jedi -- and that Harrison Ford deeply urged it. (Perhaps because he's always had a slightly misanthropic streak, from what I can tell, that's unusually open for an actor of such popularity.) He thought that rather than having a village of Fozzie Bears dancing around at the end, the death of a favored (and important) character in such an all-encompassing struggle against the Most Powerful Enemy Ever would, realistically, give viewers some flavor that such victories are often accompanied by unspeakable losses. Such a development in ROTJ, I think, might've deepened that movie a little bit. Would it have been a disrespectful act to the character? Since it would've come in the context of a war story, I don't think so.
Same for the developments in Serenity that you're trying so very hard not to spoil five years after the fact. (I'll play along, though I think five years is long enough not to worry about such things personally.) The characters who meet untimely ends in the movie do so in ways that, yes, are shocking -- but also make a whole lot of sense in the context of the events going on around them. And the result is that our heroes, in the end, have a victory ... but one tempered by a bit of melancholy, knowing they have paid a steep price to do the right thing. I don't think it's ill-serves the characters at all.
If we view our entertainments as (sometimes) a means of passing along instruction and inspiration, I'd submit that it's wonderful and wise message to find. In real life, doing the right thing can often come with a steep price. It's rare that everybody gets the victory they want and the entire gang is intact to have a great new adventure next week. And I wonder if the prevalence of that kind of story structure in our culture doesn't infect our political discourse somewhat; it's rare that entertainments depict somebody having to choose from a range of really awful choices and picking the one that -- instead of doing the greatest good -- ends up doing the least harm. But that's not so rarely the options available to our political leaders. Somehow, though, we expect it of them.
All of which is to say: I felt an ample twinge of regret when one of my favorite characters died near the end of Serenity. But I understood the choice, and I thought it served the story well.*
*Oh lord. Did I really just write that many geeky words on a geeky topic?
Good point on five years being plenty long enough to not "spoil" anything by naming names. Ok ...
I did not have much trouble with the death of Book, a character that I loved. (I also loved that he was played by Ron Glass, whom I loved in Barney Miller and had never seen since.) He was always somewhat of a misfit in the Serenity crew by design — an external conscience for Mal, questioning his black-and-white values. He was an outsider, who eventually began to better understand and even sympathize with the crew and its outlaw ways ... at least a little. The sacrifice of his character, then, made sense to me. His death would solidify in Mal's mind all that Book taught him (though Mal pretended Book could not and did not teach him anything).
The death of Wash was shocking ... and it seemed only for shock value (and the fact, as I mentioned earlier, that Alan Tudyk insisted his character be killed off because he was sick of getting his hopes up for the Serenity/Firefly project and wanted an out ... a decision he said he later regretted). I guess I'm just being selfish here, and adhering to the outline/reasons why favorite characters in most dramas are simply not killed off — because they are popular. The character of Wash, and the way he was so effortlessly and smartly played by Tudyk, was one of my greatest pop-culture/entertainment joys of the decade. And to have the Revers impale him right after he repeats his great line: "I am a leaf on the wind," was so jarring. When seeing the movie for the first time, my hand literally went up to my mouth as I gasped. And I said "nooooooooooo" to the screen.
Yes, this was great drama — of which surprise is a key element. Doesn't mean I have to enjoy the death of one of my all-time favorite characters for the sake of art. The only saving grace? A possible (if extremely unlikely) revisit to the Firefly/Serenity universe could include "prequels" ... or stories that happened between the end of the series and the movie.
I will put my cards on the table: my wife and I loved the characters, and the world of Firefly. Were gladdened by the return to the Big Screen of Serenity. Were saddened by the destruction of some of our favorite characters.
No critical analysis was involved. We were being as selfish as those who wish Lewis had written 12 Narnia books, all with Peter, Lucy, Edmund and that other kid. Or that Alice could have returned to Wonderland over and over, or Bilbo could have all the adventures in Middle Earth.
We are stupid, selfish creatures of habit.
Kill 'em off, but give 'em another three years of television episodes first! ;o/
I have a curious respect for directors/authors/etc. when a strong, sympathetic character gets killed off unexpectedly and without fanfare. Think Vincent Vega in Pulp Fiction or Tasha Yar on Star Trek TNG. You don't see it coming, it happens, and it's over before you have time to absorb it. It makes you appreciate that when "peripheral" characters get snuffed, that they were real people, too.
Comments
Dark City
... I've seen that a few times, Gattaca once, Serenity (which I don't like, all the way, b/c of Whedon's fatal inability to take care of his characters!!) I own. Need to see the Aranofsky film, never got around to that.
Gattaca was, well. Okay. I didn't grok it entirely, but it played for me like a nifty pulp novella by Heinlein.
Primer and Moon are on my list of low-budget sci-fi films to watch , along with the Robin Williams vehicle The Final Cut.
Best Dark City homage ever? Glad you asked. It's in Team America: World Police. ;o/
Re: Dark City
I bought Dark City because it was so hyped as a cult film, and I was kind of disappointed. I enjoyed eXistenZ, from the B-List, much more. Both are speculative philosophical sci-fi in the same general territory as The Matrix, but neither were near as compelling. But of the two, Cronenberg's is superior, partly because the actors are much better. Jennifer Jason Leigh has a redeeming effect on marginal films that almost merits her addition to Roger Ebert's famed "Stanton-Walsh Rule."
Whedon's mistake in Serenity
Wry Mouth says:
Explain please. If you're talking about a certain character getting killed near the end, I remember reading that was actually at the actor's insistence, not Whedon's.
Whedon versus characters: Well
... what about the *other* character who gets killed? huh?!
PS. if it was the actor's insistence, I am a tad more sympathetic. A tad.
Killing characters
If that's the case, its actually a more damning indictment of Whedon's ability as a director/auteur (which I rank much higher than most - close to the Coen Brothers'). If you cede control of the story to the actors (or other cast/crew), then you are treading in dangerous territory.
Killing great characters in Serenity
As much as I love the characters in Serenity/Firefly, I'm not sure I get this conversation.
Seems to me that in a good screenplay of any given genre, a well-developed story and well-developed characters serve each other -- that is, the story derives from how the characters would act in a given situation. If they're long-established characters and they suddenly act against type in order to further the story in some complicated way and then they revert to type after the story has been altered, that's bad.
I'm going somewhere here, I promise.
The reverse is also true: If the story goes someplace interesting and the characters don't evolve or change in a natural fashion to reflect how that journey might've changed them: Also bad. You can see this in a thousand bad sitcoms/dramas where something life-changing happens one week and the next week everybody's carrying forth as though nothing happened.
Lots of stories put their characters in mortal danger time and again, and yet everybody comes through unscathed because ... well, not really because it serves the story all that well, but because the character is popular. Or the actor who plays the character has some sort of leverage.
I've read somewhere that Han Solo was supposed to die at the end of Return of the Jedi -- and that Harrison Ford deeply urged it. (Perhaps because he's always had a slightly misanthropic streak, from what I can tell, that's unusually open for an actor of such popularity.) He thought that rather than having a village of Fozzie Bears dancing around at the end, the death of a favored (and important) character in such an all-encompassing struggle against the Most Powerful Enemy Ever would, realistically, give viewers some flavor that such victories are often accompanied by unspeakable losses. Such a development in ROTJ, I think, might've deepened that movie a little bit. Would it have been a disrespectful act to the character? Since it would've come in the context of a war story, I don't think so.
Same for the developments in Serenity that you're trying so very hard not to spoil five years after the fact. (I'll play along, though I think five years is long enough not to worry about such things personally.) The characters who meet untimely ends in the movie do so in ways that, yes, are shocking -- but also make a whole lot of sense in the context of the events going on around them. And the result is that our heroes, in the end, have a victory ... but one tempered by a bit of melancholy, knowing they have paid a steep price to do the right thing. I don't think it's ill-serves the characters at all.
If we view our entertainments as (sometimes) a means of passing along instruction and inspiration, I'd submit that it's wonderful and wise message to find. In real life, doing the right thing can often come with a steep price. It's rare that everybody gets the victory they want and the entire gang is intact to have a great new adventure next week. And I wonder if the prevalence of that kind of story structure in our culture doesn't infect our political discourse somewhat; it's rare that entertainments depict somebody having to choose from a range of really awful choices and picking the one that -- instead of doing the greatest good -- ends up doing the least harm. But that's not so rarely the options available to our political leaders. Somehow, though, we expect it of them.
All of which is to say: I felt an ample twinge of regret when one of my favorite characters died near the end of Serenity. But I understood the choice, and I thought it served the story well.*
*Oh lord. Did I really just write that many geeky words on a geeky topic?
Killing of Serenity characters
Good point on five years being plenty long enough to not "spoil" anything by naming names. Ok ...
I did not have much trouble with the death of Book, a character that I loved. (I also loved that he was played by Ron Glass, whom I loved in Barney Miller and had never seen since.) He was always somewhat of a misfit in the Serenity crew by design — an external conscience for Mal, questioning his black-and-white values. He was an outsider, who eventually began to better understand and even sympathize with the crew and its outlaw ways ... at least a little. The sacrifice of his character, then, made sense to me. His death would solidify in Mal's mind all that Book taught him (though Mal pretended Book could not and did not teach him anything).
The death of Wash was shocking ... and it seemed only for shock value (and the fact, as I mentioned earlier, that Alan Tudyk insisted his character be killed off because he was sick of getting his hopes up for the Serenity/Firefly project and wanted an out ... a decision he said he later regretted). I guess I'm just being selfish here, and adhering to the outline/reasons why favorite characters in most dramas are simply not killed off — because they are popular. The character of Wash, and the way he was so effortlessly and smartly played by Tudyk, was one of my greatest pop-culture/entertainment joys of the decade. And to have the Revers impale him right after he repeats his great line: "I am a leaf on the wind," was so jarring. When seeing the movie for the first time, my hand literally went up to my mouth as I gasped. And I said "nooooooooooo" to the screen.
Yes, this was great drama — of which surprise is a key element. Doesn't mean I have to enjoy the death of one of my all-time favorite characters for the sake of art. The only saving grace? A possible (if extremely unlikely) revisit to the Firefly/Serenity universe could include "prequels" ... or stories that happened between the end of the series and the movie.
Serenity Deaths
I will put my cards on the table: my wife and I loved the characters, and the world of Firefly. Were gladdened by the return to the Big Screen of Serenity. Were saddened by the destruction of some of our favorite characters.
No critical analysis was involved. We were being as selfish as those who wish Lewis had written 12 Narnia books, all with Peter, Lucy, Edmund and that other kid. Or that Alice could have returned to Wonderland over and over, or Bilbo could have all the adventures in Middle Earth.
We are stupid, selfish creatures of habit.
Kill 'em off, but give 'em another three years of television episodes first! ;o/
Kill 'em all
I have a curious respect for directors/authors/etc. when a strong, sympathetic character gets killed off unexpectedly and without fanfare. Think Vincent Vega in Pulp Fiction or Tasha Yar on Star Trek TNG. You don't see it coming, it happens, and it's over before you have time to absorb it. It makes you appreciate that when "peripheral" characters get snuffed, that they were real people, too.