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Instamonkey: Presidential bows revisited

Tue, 11/17/2009 - 15:29 — Ben

The New York Times's David Sanger and Politico's Ben Smith dig in to the history of presidential bows to foreign princes and potentates. (Slate's Laura Rozen has an item, too.)

I guess we're supposed to conclude that President Obama's bow to Japan's emperor was no big deal. I conclude that good, old-fashioned American anti-monarchical republicanism went by the boards a long time ago. Pity.

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Tue, 11/17/2009 - 18:30 — Ed Flinn (not verified)

Can Michelle's plain cloth coat be far behind?

So, if his secret middle name, which polite folk dare not mention, is really Milhouse, we're supposed to pretend surprise?

Tue, 11/17/2009 - 21:46 — Dr. Zaius

Bowing and David Sanger

I was an acquaintance of David Sanger when I covered the White House. Nice guy. Wish he read his own paper's coverage of a bow ... after George H.W. Bush was president before weighing in on the NYT blog. For the record (and if you don't want to click through), the NYTimes in June of 1994 was going to great lengths to say Bill Clinton didn't bow, when he did.

That kinda makes Sanger's reference to Papa Bush — who was attending a funeral, where a deep bow has at least a little justification — seem a little foolish. Or partisan. Take your pick. The fact that Sanger skipped over a more contemporary presidential bow ... draw your own conclusions.

Tue, 11/17/2009 - 22:40 — Ben

Re: Bowing and David Sanger

The Ben Smith item is more damning, I think.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 08:31 — Khabalox

Bowing

a funeral, where a deep bow has at least a little justification

Really? How so? I don't consider myself a Japanese cultural expert. The extent of my knowledge comes from my family hosting an exchange student for the better part of a year (while I was in my mid to late twenties [but living at home again]), and then visiting his family in Tokyo for about 4 weeks. But from what I remember from those experiences, a bow is simply a formal greeting and show of respect. Well, obviously there are a lot more layers to it than that - subjects of the emperor would prostrate themselves flatly on the floor back in the day, as opposed to the 20-40 degree bow from the hips you see today. But I don't recall ever hearing anything about bowing at a funereal to a corpse to be somehow different, or any less a show of respect or what have you. Are you saying that because the wartime emperor that Bush bowed to was dead, it was clear he wasn't swearing fealty, whereas Obama (or Nixon) bowing to a living emperor (or supreme leader) somehow does? I think that's just daft.

This is all so silly. It was a simple greeting and show of respect (for the person and the culture). I bet when Obama (or Bush, or Clinton) goes to Europe or the Middle East, they do the cheek kiss thing. But that doesn't make them gay (the Bush/Saudi lip-kiss on the other hand.... ;).

Much ado about nothing.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 09:48 — crywalt

Bowing Equals Handshake?

Does Japanese bowing translate roughly to a sign of respect and greeting like the Western handshake?

Personally I've never been fond of, or very good at, shaking hands. It bothers me. For some reason I can feel a handshake for at least an hour afterward. If the guy uses cologne or something it's worse. Then my hand smells like him for a while. I'm very sensitive about these things. I never know if I'm supposed to shake hands and I rarely initiate it. Sometimes I mistake a little jerk of the hand for an incoming shake and then I go for the shake and see this look of slight surprise on the guy and I think, damn, I screwed that up. It's like the bit where David Letterman goes over to the musical guest and no one seems sure if he's going to shake hands with anyone or everyone.

If the handshake happens, too, I always feel I got it wrong. Like sometimes the other guy closes his hand too quickly for me and I end up being shaken by the fingers and I feel wimpy. Or he's got a strong grip, or he's got a weak grip and I worry mine was too strong. I always think something I read once about the proper handshake -- "web to web" -- but that almost never seems to work out for me. The father of one of my daughter's friends is short but really wide and his hand is exactly the same, so I can't even get my fingers around his hand, it's just this big solid slab of pork, and I feel like a child when we shake. It's like trying to wrap my hand around a dictionary.

I also have trouble with women who hug people hello. And the kiss is just terrible. I don't like being touched. This one friend of mine, his wife always hugged people hello, and when she got to me she'd say, "Oh, right, you don't like being hugged," and then she'd hug me anyway. Stay away! Lucky for me she and my wife stopped talking for some reason so I haven't had to see her for ten years. I get together with the husband now and again and we don't shake hands.

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 09:57 — Khabalox

RE Bowing Equals Handshake?

I don't think they are quite the same, though there isn't really a better analogue in Western culture that I can think of. The bow implies/connotes respect in a much stronger way than a handshake does (if a handshake does at all).

Wed, 11/18/2009 - 10:02 — crywalt

Handshake and Respect

Of course a handshake denotes respect. Have you ever tried to deny a handshake to someone? Do you see what happens when people do? I can think of a lot of movie and sitcom moments based around that, too. And when two men agree to something, what do they do? They shake on it!

It may denote respect less forcefully than the Japanese bow. Which is what I was wondering. Their culture is so different. (There are days when I think the Japanese are purposely weird just because they know they have a reputation for being weird and they want to live up to it.)